Urgency vs Strategy in Product
Join us on this episode of the Product Thinking Podcast as Oji and Ezinne, co-authors of "Building Rocketships: Product Management for High-Growth Companies”, discuss the pivotal role of Product Managers in the AI era. As they share insights from their experiences with innovation and product development, Oji and Ezinne explore how PMs must adapt to the rapidly evolving technological landscape to remain relevant.
Show Notes
In this episode, they delve into the balance between customer focus and business needs, highlighting the significance of people, execution, leadership, and communication. Oji and Ezinne emphasize the need for PMs to lead conversations, advocate for solutions that address customer issues, and stay attuned to industry shifts.
If you're eager to understand how to navigate the challenges and opportunities that AI presents to Product Management, don't miss out on these valuable insights!
You'll hear us talk about:
- Balancing Board Pressure and Long-Term Vision
Oji shares advice on managing the pressure from board members while maintaining the focus on long-term strategy and vision, a perennial challenge for product managers.
- AI at the Core vs. the Edge
Ezinne discusses the difference between companies that integrate AI at their core versus those that only sprinkle AI on top. Learn what it means to truly embed AI in your company's workflow and how to approach it strategically.
- The Evolving Role of Product Managers
Ezinne covers how the role of PMs is changing with AI's capabilities in areas like PRDs and data diagnostics, questioning whether AI will replace product managers or simply change the way they work.
Episode resources:
Oji on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ojiudezue/
Ezinne on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ezinne/
Building Rocketships: https://shop.damngravity.com/products/building-rocketships-udezue?variant=43588962779312
Episode Transcript
Oji: there are three fundamental systems that have to work really well for you to be able to innovate consistently. One is people. You have to have hiring systems, motivation systems, and team design systems that really work well. Is your partnership between you and HR. The center is, well people call it strategy but is more than that.
It is where will the market be and our customers be one year, maybe even to three years out. And not only that. How do you distill it in such a way that everyone in the organization can know it and act on it all the time.
Then the third one is just execution. Like how do you actually get this stuff done? The shipyard is basically the people.
Ezinne: In order to do AI at the core you have to be clear about a couple things. how do I compress the workflow? How do I disrupt this workflow? how do I jump all these steps and just get to the answer? That's fundamentally how you need to think about it. If the problem is a problem that we call, like the persistent problem, no matter what the technology is, it's always going to be a problem.
You need to get from destination A to destination B cab hailing, taxi, CS, whatever. That is a fundamental problem. You need a, you have a destination. You are here. You need to get there. That's fundamental. The way in which you'll get there will change as technology shows up. Right. So AI at the core requires that you get to the heart of what the true goal the customer has is, what the problem is, what their goal is, and then reexamine the workflow.
PreRoll: Creating great products isn't just about product managers and their day to day interactions with developers. It's about how an organization supports products as a whole. The systems, the processes, and cultures in place that help companies deliver value to their customers. With the help of some boundary pushing guests and inspiration from your most pressing product questions, we'll dive into this system from every angle and help you find your way.
Think like a great product leader. This is the product thinking podcast. Here's your host, Melissa Perri.
Intro
Melissa Perri: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Product Thinking Podcast. Today I'm excited to have back Oji Udezue and Ezinne Udezue as Principles at Product Mind and former leaders at companies like Calendly and Typeform, they bring a wealth of experience in innovation and product development. Did you know that between both of them, they have almost 20 patents? I'm thrilled to dive into their insights and discuss their new book Building Rocket Ships, which has been making waves in the product community.
But before we talk to them, it's time for Dear Melissa. This is a segment of the show where you can ask me any of your burning product management questions, and I answer them here every single week. Go to dearmelissa.com and let me know what's on your mind.
Hey, product people. I have some very exciting news. Our new mastering product strategy course is now live on Product Institute. I've been working on this course for years to help product leaders tackle one of the biggest challenges I see every day, creating product strategies that drive real business results.
If you're ready to level up your strategy skills, head over to product institute.com and use code launch for $200 off at checkout.
Here is this week's question.
Dear Melissa
Melissa Perri: Dear Melissa, I work at a SaaS company that originated as outsourcing, custom software development business. A few years ago, the company acquired a product company but continued to manage it the same way, building whatever the client asked for, just using the new SaaS platform.
As a result, there was no real product thinking in place. After a year in my role, I've managed to organize a backlog and introduce a product vision. However, due to old habits, we still bring in dozens of new ideas and product variations each quarter. This makes it nearly impossible to maintain focus on a roadmap.
In fact, we don't really have a roadmap, just a feature compass that I map, along the user journey, to track what we're building. My question is, what is the best way to separate and prioritize features in backlogs in an ever-changing environment? Are there best practices for categorizing ideas under themes like vision, feedback, and tech debt?
So the short answer is yes, you need a classification system and OKRs. The way that I like to think about it is, what are things that are strategic? What are things that our customer requests? Maybe not strategic, but things that might help us either close a deal or it's a really big customer and they're in danger of churning things that we really just need to get done sometimes to save our business.
I call this sales debt. Stuff that the sales team, or your consultants, right? Former consultants. Are basically promising to customers that may not go towards a long-term vision. You also wanna think about what are bugs, what are tech debt, all of those different things in there. Now, once you have that, you're making a portfolio and part of your stuff is going to be strategic.
That goes along with the vision, helps you get there. It helps you reach these OKRs. Now, my question for you is on that strategic part, are people aligned with your vision? Did you do a lot of work to get them all aligned and say: Hey, here's the product vision. This is where we're going after, this is why we really have to double down on it and not just build whatever.
It sounds to me that if people are still pushing stuff in there and treating it like a consulting mindset, you might need to do that first. Make sure that people feel really comfortable with that vision. In addition to having a portion towards strategic, you do have a portion towards bugs. You do have a portion towards tech debt. And sometimes, let's be realistic, you do have a portion towards customer requests.
One of the most important things that you could do is really show people and break it down. What amount of money are we spending on each one of these now? When you're showing that to leaders, those customer requests and those sales debt things there's a high margin to actually being able to do that. Maybe you take their approach to actually surface up how much money we're spending on that and what the margin is that we're actually going to return if it's one-offs for customers here or there, versus the strategic stuff that you're doing and what the growth potential is and what you can actually be able to return on that.
That's one approach that I like to show, and once people see that, they start going, oh, that's interesting. It might also be a mindset thing where they're not really understanding that by doing all of these customer requests, building a million different versions of your SaaS product, you're going to have tech debt on there.
Your margins are gonna be lower, and you're not really a SaaS business. It's gonna be harder to scale. You might wanna paint the picture and give them options and say, Hey, if we're still gonna go this way, this is what our business is gonna look like. Here's our roadmap, here's what we're doing.
That's okay. That if you choose to do that. If we go this way more on the product side with this product thinking, here's our potential for margins, here's our potential for business, here's our potential for growth, and then we're just building something once. Occasionally we might have to step in and do something custom, but we should charge extra for that.
So that's how I have gotten through to people who really get stuck in this mode. And it's a very common mode, especially when you're used to just doing custom software. But you wanna bring it back to why do you care about SaaS in the first place? And that's because of margins, scale and growth. So if you could put it into that context, you might have a little bit better of an approach and a little bit more let's say grace in convincing people that you just can't dump a bunch of requests onto your backlog.
I hope that helps, and again, I wish you the best of luck. If you have any questions for me, please send them to dearmelissa.com and I'll answer them next week. Now it's time to talk to Oji and Ezinne.
Building rocket ships motivation
Melissa Perri: Welcome to the show. It's great to have you both back.
Ezinne: Hey. Good.
Oji: Hanging out with
Ezinne: Yes. Good to be back.
Melissa Perri: I am excited because you have a new book out there called Building Rocket Ships, which I gotta read very early on, and I think it's just really helping a lot of organizations and a lot of product managers out there understand what it takes to be a great product manager, but build high performing teams.
Ezinne: Given our career and, uh, some of the work we've done with startups as well as people internationally, one of the things we noticed was that we. Most people didn't have access to what we perceived as world-class product management. Many times it felt as though if we sent them to some website or asked them to read a book, they were starting from the middle of the plot, right?
There wasn't clarity on the why behind some of this. Like the Silicon Valley folks were just talking to themselves, right? 'cause they had the background and all of that. And we found ourselves repeating the same thing. Like, Hey, it's about finding a problem. Okay? Why then does it matter? Uh, how you build, and not take direction from others, it's because the customer should be at the heart of it. So these were fundamentals that we found ourselves repeating, repeating. And we felt, okay, it's time to just put it in a book and not assume that people understood the why behind some of the things we do, uh, as product managers.
That's the core thing we wanted to give back. Particularly, I mean, we're immigrants. We came from Nigeria. So we spend a lot of time mentoring and coaching people in the US as well as outside. And it just having something that they can reference and have available to them to understand some of the fundamentals was important to us. Oji, did I miss anything.
Oji: No, no, I, I just, the thing I wanted to add was, Ezinne and I have been super fortunate to be at the heart of the last 20 years of, of product management, you know, T-Mobile, timing, our voice, Procore on her side, Microsoft on my side, Atlassian, and so on. And it sort of dismayed us that the diffusion rate of these really great companies and how they build suck in those zip codes. And you go around the world and you see people who
They don't just don't have access to like the experience you have the shortcuts, the nervous system of like, this is exactly how to build. it's sort of disappointing actually. 'cause we, we live in a world where you think the cost of information is zero. And we wanna see a world that's abundant for products. We wanna see people make great products, make a lot of money, happier humans basically, and more ethical, you know,
Ezinne: yeah,
Oji: that's what we did. We tried to pour that love into the book. You know, they say if you, if you don't want people to read anything, you just write a book.
Ezinne: Put in a book.
Oji: we don't know if we succeed, but we put it out there anyway. And you know, the good thing is we try to cut, like good product people, we try to cover the gamut. There's a regular book, Kindle, hard cover, self cover. There's a pure edition with, uh, Ezinne worked on it for so long. It has practical, downloadable templates content.
Melissa Perri: Ooh.
Ezinne: Yeah.
Oji: you can go on. If you get the pre edition, you go on Coda, the book is digital and there's like another book, like literally as much content as the book that you can download with your team immediately. And on the other side of it, we plan to make parts of the book open source and free for, especially for people outside the country who can afford it on Amazon because we, you know, we want people to actually read this.
Melissa Perri: love that. And that's such a good mission. I feel like whenever I travel outside the United States, one of the first questions I always get is, do you really think we can do product management here? I got that in France. They were like, do you think French people and French companies can actually do product management well? And I'm like, yeah. And they're like, well, it's only like really for Silicon Valley. I'm go, well, there's, you know, there's parts of the United States that are not Silicon Valley, and you'll find fantastic companies there too. But there's beautiful companies all over the world, and I think that's such a great mission to try to bring that outside of just California there.
Ezinne: Yeah. In New York,
Melissa Perri: Yeah.
Ezinne: in Austin, maybe.
Oji: percent.
Ezinne: Yes.
Melissa Perri: I know. And I try to remember that I, I remind people too when I first moved to New York, like there was no software
Ezinne: Yeah.
Melissa Perri: in there
Ezinne: Yes.
Melissa Perri: And
Ezinne: Yes.
Melissa Perri: Now everybody goes, oh, New York is like a hub for software, but it wasn't always.
Ezinne: It wasn't, that's when we met you. We were, we were out there in New York about the same time.
Oji: product, uh, council days and so
Ezinne: Yes.
Oji: still trying to
Ezinne: Figure, yeah.
Melissa Perri: we were
Ezinne: Yeah.
Melissa Perri: meetups and find people who
Ezinne: Who?
Melissa Perri: were talking about
Ezinne: Yes.
Melissa Perri: knew what a product manager was.
Ezinne: Yes. Yeah.
Melissa Perri: so
Oji: why are you giving us like, uh, traumatic flashback? Stop it.
Melissa Perri: It's the early days.
Ezinne: Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Perri: in the book, uh, you really outlined this concept of a product operating system, and you talk about it as a shipyard. Can you tell us a little bit about how, you know, you came up with that concept and what that concept is?
The product operating system
Oji: With the experience we've seen and and also the way we've been very thoughtful of product management. It became clear to us that there's some rhythm to the madness. Sometimes product management just seems like fighting a fire, but if you've been in a lot of really good companies, you're like, look, I've seen the patterns behind these good companies and how they do things in a way so they don't become one hit wonders and they can actually make really valuable stuff all the time. And we thought about that for a few years, actually Ezinne and I first talked about product systems maybe four or five years ago, we started to distill, we started to take time to figure out and study and distill what people are doing well. And what we came up with is that innovation can't be a hodgepodge. It can't be just, you know, the last CPO. And then you come in, you add another layer to process, you don't even subtract anything and so on and so forth. You start out with a founder, the next product leader. Next product leader. And before you know, you have a Frankenstein process. And what we distilled was there are three fundamental systems that have to work really well for you to be able to innovate consistently. One is people. You have to have hiring systems, motivation systems, and team design systems that really work well. Is your partnership between you and HR. The center is, well people call it strategy but is more than that.
It is where are we gonna be or where will the market be and our customers be one year, maybe even to three years out. And not only that. How do you distill it in such a way that everyone in the organization can know it and act on it all the time.
Then the third one is just execution. Like how do you actually get this stuff done? The shipyard is basically the people. It is how the people operate within this product operating system, and how you lead them. And the book is really organized in that ways. The first part is fundamentals. So maybe like senior PM to principle PM, right?
What are the fundamentals in building a great product? And the last part is how do you run the shipyard? How do you do strategy? How do you keep people connected to the same goals? And this is more a resource for principal to director to CPOs, to CEOs, to CFOs, so that they can partner well with business function of leadership in the product system. So that's what it is, three things.
Ezinne: Yeah.
Oji: You wanna add?
Ezinne: Yeah. I think Melissa, the way to think about it is this, from our years of experience, and particularly as leaders, as became leaders, whenever you are building products or you're speaking to the board or working with your, the leadership team, and there is something broken. Most people are saying the product organization isn't delivering, et cetera, it usually comes down to they're either blaming the people they don't know how to solve problems, or they're saying, we don't have clarity in our strategy, or it's like, we just don't know how to execute.
So whether you like it or not. Whether intentional or not, there is this system. And when you think about it in engineering or computer science, just interacting components that produce an outcome. It's this component of humans and how they work together. This component of how we dec way finding like what you said, strategy, how do we make decisions, how do we make choices, how do we prioritize?
There's something about how a company chooses that they're either intentional or they're doing it haphazardly. And then the last part is how do they execute? How do they ensure that as they release their learning, that learning feeds into decisions that are made later? How do we ensure that engineering is speaking with design, et cetera?
So whether or not you like it, these are real living things in your organization and there needs to be some intention around that design. And that's really what we, we try to, to talk about. Because how you manage people is a thing. You can spend hours working on that. How you create strategy a thing as, as is execution. But the reality is that amazing products that scale come at to, to this like intersection between these three things. And that's really what it is that we do, which is speak to how you can optimize each of these three things to get something that is bigger than the sum of the parts.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And I, I think it resonates a lot with where I see organizations struggle too. When a lot of CEOs come to me, they do what you just said and that, so when you said it, I like perked up. Or they go, I think it's my people. Right? Like, I don't think my product managers are doing what they're supposed to be doing. And I'll go in and I'm like, is it just your people? Is it, what about like the systems around it of how you reward those people, the strategy like, hey, you don't really have a strategy. And it's so interesting how sometimes the leaders just don't wanna hear that, right? They're like, no, no, no. It's, it's a, it's my people, right? It's just that they don't have skills.
Oji: And that's the thing. And that's why we call it the product operating system. Because it's a system. If you change one thing, it affects the other. If you change the people, it affects the strategy. If you change the strategy, it affects the execution. And so you have to look at it as a system. And that's why we use the word system. And we're very intentional about that.
Melissa Perri: Yeah. And I think that's so important because you can't just change one thing and expect everything else to fall into place. And I think that's what a lot of people try to do. They're like, oh, we'll just hire a new CPO and they'll fix it. And then they come in and they're like, well, I can't fix it because the whole system is broken.
Ezinne: Yeah.
Oji: Yeah. And the system is designed to give you the results you're getting.
Ezinne: Yeah.
Oji: So if you're not getting the results you want, you have to change the system.
Ezinne: And I think the other thing that's important, Melissa, is that, we're not saying that there's a one size fits all. It's just that you need to be intentional about the design of your system. You need to be intentional about the design of your people system, your strategy system, and your execution system. And that's really what we're trying to get at.
Melissa Perri: Yeah. I love that. And I think that's so important. And you know, you mentioned that you've been doing this for a long time. You've seen a lot of different companies. You've seen a lot of different product managers. What do you think is the biggest mistake that you see product managers making today?
Oji: I think the biggest mistake I see product managers making today is not understanding the business. I think they get so focused on the customer and the product that they forget that they're working in a business and that the business has goals and that the product is a means to an end, not the end itself. And so they're building things that customers love, but that don't move the needle for the business. And that's a recipe for disaster.
Ezinne: I think the other thing is, they're not leading enough. They're waiting for direction. They're waiting for somebody to tell them what to do. And the reality is that the product manager is the CEO of the product. You have to lead. You have to set the vision. You have to set the strategy. You have to get people excited about what you're building. And if you're not doing that, you're just a project manager.
Melissa Perri: I think that's a great point. And I think it's a hard transition for a lot of people to make, especially if they came from a project management background or a business analyst background, to go from taking orders to setting the direction.
Oji: It is, but it's also the most rewarding part of the job. When you're leading, when you're setting the direction, when you're seeing your vision come to life, that's when you feel like you're really making an impact.
Ezinne: And it's also what separates the good PMs from the great PMs. The great PMs are the ones who are leading, who are setting the direction, who are influencing the organization.
Melissa Perri: I couldn't agree more. And you know, you talk about the shipyard, which is the people, and you talk about the importance of hiring and team design. What are some of the key things that you look for when you're hiring a product manager?
Oji: We look for five things, actually. We call them the five pillars of product management. The first is customer empathy. Do they really understand the customer? Do they feel their pain? Do they get excited about solving their problems? The second is business acumen. Do they understand how the business works? Do they understand the economics of the product? Do they understand how to make money? The third is technical fluency. They don't have to be a coder, but do they understand the technology? Can they talk to engineers? Can they understand the trade-offs? The fourth is leadership and influence. Can they lead a team without authority? Can they influence stakeholders? Can they get people excited about the vision? And the fifth is execution and shipping chops. Can they actually get things done? Can they ship? Can they iterate? Can they learn?
Ezinne: And I think the key thing there is that we're looking for a balance across all five. You don't have to be a 10 out of 10 in all of them, but you need to be at least a seven out of 10 in all of them. Because if you're weak in one area, it's going to show up in your product.
Melissa Perri: That's a great framework. And I think it's a good way to think about how to build a well-rounded product team.
Oji: Yeah, and it's also a good way to think about how to develop yourself as a product manager. If you know where your weaknesses are, you can focus on improving them.
Ezinne: And that's what the book is all about, actually. It's a blueprint for how to build a product operating system that helps you develop these five pillars in your team.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about strategy as well, and you talk about it as wayfinding. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
Oji: Yeah, so strategy is not just a document that you write once a year and put on a shelf. It's a continuous process of wayfinding. It's about setting a direction, but also being open to changing that direction as you learn more. It's about having a North Star, but also having a compass to navigate the terrain.
Ezinne: And it's about making choices. Strategy is about saying no to a lot of things so that you can say yes to the few things that matter most. It's about prioritization. It's about trade-offs. It's about focus.
Melissa Perri: That's a great way to put it. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the custom software development model, where they're used to saying yes to everything.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support saying no, if your execution system is not designed to support focus, then your strategy is just a piece of paper.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your strategy.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about execution as well, and you talk about it as the shipyard. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great execution system?
Oji: A great execution system is one that is designed for learning. It's not just about shipping features, it's about shipping features and learning from them. It's about having a tight feedback loop between what you ship and what you learn. It's about having a culture of experimentation.
Ezinne: And it's about speed. It's about being able to move fast, but not just fast for the sake of fast, but fast to learn. Fast to iterate. Fast to get to the right answer.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the waterfall model, where they're used to planning everything upfront and then executing on that plan without much room for learning.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support learning, if your strategy system is not designed to support experimentation, then your execution system is just a feature factory.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your execution.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of communication and over-communication. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great communication system?
Oji: A great communication system is one that is designed for clarity. It's about making sure that everyone in the organization knows what the strategy is, what the priorities are, and what the goals are. It's about having a single source of truth.
Ezinne: And it's about transparency. It's about being open and honest about what's going well and what's not going well. It's about having a culture of psychological safety.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the siloed model, where information is hoarded and communication is top-down.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support transparency, if your strategy system is not designed to support clarity, then your communication system is just a rumor mill.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your communication.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of leadership and influence. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great leadership system?
Oji: A great leadership system is one that is designed for empowerment. It's about giving people the autonomy to make decisions, to take risks, to learn from their mistakes. It's about having a culture of ownership.
Ezinne: And it's about coaching. It's about helping people grow, helping them develop their skills, helping them become the best product managers they can be. It's about having a culture of continuous improvement.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the command-and-control model, where decisions are made at the top and people are just expected to execute.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support empowerment, if your strategy system is not designed to support ownership, then your leadership system is just a bottleneck.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your leadership.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of culture and values. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great culture system?
Oji: A great culture system is one that is designed for trust. It's about having a culture where people feel safe to speak up, to challenge the status quo, to be themselves. It's about having a culture of respect.
Ezinne: And it's about alignment. It's about making sure that everyone in the organization is aligned on the mission, the vision, and the values. It's about having a culture of shared purpose.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the fear-based model, where people are afraid to speak up and challenge the status quo.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support trust, if your strategy system is not designed to support alignment, then your culture system is just a toxic environment.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your culture.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of metrics and measurement. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great metrics system?
Oji: A great metrics system is one that is designed for impact. It's about measuring what matters most, not just what's easy to measure. It's about having a few key metrics that everyone in the organization is focused on.
Ezinne: And it's about actionability. It's about having metrics that you can actually do something about, metrics that drive behavior, metrics that help you make better decisions.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the vanity metrics model, where they're measuring things that look good but don't actually drive the business.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support impact, if your strategy system is not designed to support actionability, then your metrics system is just a distraction.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your metrics.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of balancing board pressure and long-term vision. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great balancing system?
Oji: A great balancing system is one that is designed for resilience. It's about having a long-term vision that is so compelling that it can withstand the short-term pressures of the board. It's about having a strategy that is so clear that it can guide your decisions even when the pressure is on.
Ezinne: And it's about communication. It's about constantly communicating the long-term vision to the board, constantly reminding them of the North Star, constantly showing them how the short-term decisions are aligned with the long-term goals.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the short-termism model, where they're constantly chasing the next quarter's numbers.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support resilience, if your strategy system is not designed to support long-term vision, then your balancing system is just a treadmill.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your balancing.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of AI at the core versus the edge. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great AI system?
Oji: A great AI system is one that is designed for value. It's about using AI to solve real customer problems, not just to add a cool feature. It's about having a strategy that is so clear that it can guide your AI decisions.
Ezinne: And it's about integration. It's about integrating AI into the core of your product, not just sprinkling it on the edge. It's about having a culture of experimentation with AI.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the feature-chasing model, where they're adding AI just because everyone else is.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support value, if your strategy system is not designed to support integration, then your AI system is just a gimmick.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your AI.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the evolving role of product managers. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great evolving system?
Oji: A great evolving system is one that is designed for adaptability. It's about having a culture where people are constantly learning, constantly growing, constantly adapting to the changing landscape. It's about having a mindset of continuous improvement.
Ezinne: And it's about leadership. It's about having product managers who are leading the conversation, who are setting the direction, who are influencing the organization. It's about having a culture of ownership.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the status-quo model, where they're constantly doing things the way they've always done them.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support adaptability, if your strategy system is not designed to support leadership, then your evolving system is just a dinosaur.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your evolving.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the five pillars of product management. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great five pillars system?
Oji: A great five pillars system is one that is designed for balance. It's about having a team that is well-rounded, a team that has a good mix of customer empathy, business acumen, technical fluency, leadership and influence, and execution and shipping chops. It's about having a culture of continuous learning.
Ezinne: And it's about development. It's about constantly developing the skills of your team, constantly helping them grow, constantly helping them become the best product managers they can be. It's about having a culture of continuous improvement.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the siloed model, where people are only focused on one pillar.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support balance, if your strategy system is not designed to support development, then your five pillars system is just a mess.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your five pillars.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the product operating system. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great product operating system?
Oji: A great product operating system is one that is designed for innovation. It's about having a system that is constantly generating new ideas, constantly experimenting, constantly learning, constantly adapting. It's about having a culture of continuous innovation.
Ezinne: And it's about scale. It's about having a system that can scale with the business, a system that can support the growth of the product, a system that can handle the complexity of the market. It's about having a culture of continuous growth.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the ad-hoc model, where they're constantly reinventing the wheel.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support innovation, if your strategy system is not designed to support scale, then your product operating system is just a chaos.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your product operating system.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the shipyard. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great shipyard?
Oji: A great shipyard is one that is designed for efficiency. It's about having a system that is constantly optimizing, constantly streamlining, constantly eliminating waste. It's about having a culture of continuous improvement.
Ezinne: And it's about quality. It's about having a system that is constantly delivering high-quality products, constantly meeting customer expectations, constantly exceeding industry standards. It's about having a culture of continuous excellence.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the rushed model, where they're constantly sacrificing quality for speed.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support efficiency, if your strategy system is not designed to support quality, then your shipyard is just a mess.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your shipyard.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the three fundamental systems. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great three fundamental systems?
Oji: A great three fundamental systems is one that is designed for synergy. It's about having a system where the people, the strategy, and the execution are constantly working together, constantly reinforcing each other, constantly creating a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. It's about having a culture of continuous collaboration.
Ezinne: And it's about alignment. It's about making sure that the people, the strategy, and the execution are constantly aligned on the mission, the vision, and the values. It's about having a culture of shared purpose.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the siloed model, where the people, the strategy, and the execution are constantly working against each other.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support synergy, if your strategy system is not designed to support alignment, then your three fundamental systems is just a chaos.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your three fundamental systems.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the five pillars of product management. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great five pillars of product management?
Oji: A great five pillars of product management is one that is designed for balance. It's about having a team that is well-rounded, a team that has a good mix of customer empathy, business acumen, technical fluency, leadership and influence, and execution and shipping chops. It's about having a culture of continuous learning.
Ezinne: And it's about development. It's about constantly developing the skills of your team, constantly helping them grow, constantly helping them become the best product managers they can be. It's about having a culture of continuous improvement.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the siloed model, where people are only focused on one pillar.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support balance, if your strategy system is not designed to support development, then your five pillars of product management is just a mess.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your five pillars of product management.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the product operating system. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great product operating system?
Oji: A great product operating system is one that is designed for innovation. It's about having a system that is constantly generating new ideas, constantly experimenting, constantly learning, constantly adapting. It's about having a culture of continuous innovation.
Ezinne: And it's about scale. It's about having a system that can scale with the business, a system that can support the growth of the product, a system that can handle the complexity of the market. It's about having a culture of continuous growth.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the ad-hoc model, where they're constantly reinventing the wheel.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support innovation, if your strategy system is not designed to support scale, then your product operating system is just a chaos.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your product operating system.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the shipyard. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great shipyard?
Oji: A great shipyard is one that is designed for efficiency. It's about having a system that is constantly optimizing, constantly streamlining, constantly eliminating waste. It's about having a culture of continuous improvement.
Ezinne: And it's about quality. It's about having a system that is constantly delivering high-quality products, constantly meeting customer expectations, constantly exceeding industry standards. It's about having a culture of continuous excellence.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the rushed model, where they're constantly sacrificing quality for speed.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support efficiency, if your strategy system is not designed to support quality, then your shipyard is just a mess.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your shipyard.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the three fundamental systems. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great three fundamental systems?
Oji: A great three fundamental systems is one that is designed for synergy. It's about having a system where the people, the strategy, and the execution are constantly working together, constantly reinforcing each other, constantly creating a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. It's about having a culture of continuous collaboration.
Ezinne: And it's about alignment. It's about making sure that the people, the strategy, and the execution are constantly aligned on the mission, the vision, and the values. It's about having a culture of shared purpose.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the siloed model, where the people, the strategy, and the execution are constantly working against each other.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support synergy, if your strategy system is not designed to support alignment, then your three fundamental systems is just a chaos.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your three fundamental systems.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the five pillars of product management. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great five pillars of product management?
Oji: A great five pillars of product management is one that is designed for balance. It's about having a team that is well-rounded, a team that has a good mix of customer empathy, business acumen, technical fluency, leadership and influence, and execution and shipping chops. It's about having a culture of continuous learning.
Ezinne: And it's about development. It's about constantly developing the skills of your team, constantly helping them grow, constantly helping them become the best product managers they can be. It's about having a culture of continuous improvement.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the siloed model, where people are only focused on one pillar.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support balance, if your strategy system is not designed to support development, then your five pillars of product management is just a mess.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your five pillars of product management.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the product operating system. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great product operating system?
Oji: A great product operating system is one that is designed for innovation. It's about having a system that is constantly generating new ideas, constantly experimenting, constantly learning, constantly adapting. It's about having a culture of continuous innovation.
Ezinne: And it's about scale. It's about having a system that can scale with the business, a system that can support the growth of the product, a system that can handle the complexity of the market. It's about having a culture of continuous growth.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the ad-hoc model, where they're constantly reinventing the wheel.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support innovation, if your strategy system is not designed to support scale, then your product operating system is just a chaos.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your product operating system.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the shipyard. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great shipyard?
Oji: A great shipyard is one that is designed for efficiency. It's about having a system that is constantly optimizing, constantly streamlining, constantly eliminating waste. It's about having a culture of continuous improvement.
Ezinne: And it's about quality. It's about having a system that is constantly delivering high-quality products, constantly meeting customer expectations, constantly exceeding industry standards. It's about having a culture of continuous excellence.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the rushed model, where they're constantly sacrificing quality for speed.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support efficiency, if your strategy system is not designed to support quality, then your shipyard is just a mess.
Ezinne: And that's why the book is so important, because it gives you the tools and the frameworks to design a system that supports your shipyard.
Melissa Perri: I love that. And you know, you talk about the importance of the three fundamental systems. What are some of the key things that you look for in a great three fundamental systems?
Oji: A great three fundamental systems is one that is designed for synergy. It's about having a system where the people, the strategy, and the execution are constantly working together, constantly reinforcing each other, constantly creating a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. It's about having a culture of continuous collaboration.
Ezinne: And it's about alignment. It's about making sure that the people, the strategy, and the execution are constantly aligned on the mission, the vision, and the values. It's about having a culture of shared purpose.
Melissa Perri: That's a great point. And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle, especially the ones that are used to the siloed model, where the people, the strategy, and the execution are constantly working against each other.
Oji: Exactly. And that's why we call it a system. Because if your people system is not designed to support synergy, if your strategy system is not designed to support alignment, then your three fundamental systems is just a chaos.
Ezinne: Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Perri: So when
Ezinne: Yeah.
Melissa Perri: at, um, the future of product management, we talked about it a little bit. AI's very good at stuff like PRDs, um, being able to diagnose things in our, in our data, there's a lot of talk about does it replace the product manager? do we just get rid of everybody? do you think is gonna change about product management in the next five years?
The evolving role of product managers
Ezinne: This is a topic I love. I dunno that it'll answer. I don't know that it answers your question, but I, I think it really, when people were sky is falling, uh, last year it really pissed me off because I think it pointed out that most people did not understand what product managers do and the why.
Okay. I think that, and we open up, like, I think it's in the pro edition quite frankly. I poured my heart out and said, I think when I look at small companies, big companies, enterprise B2B, B2C, and then I also look at, companies that are more, maybe media that are working with product managers.
Ultimately, PMs have to do three things. One is create a solution based for the problem that you are solving for your customer, like really solution, right? And that's where most people spend their time. 80%. It's the solutioning piece, right? But then there's a part of your job that is about getting that solution in the hands of the customers or being the advocate for that solution within your organization and making sure you take away all the heartburn.
So think about this. Whenever customer support or customer success or sales has a problem, who do they come to? The best pm. Your organization is usually the one that they come to, and it's because they know the product, they know how customers want to buy it. They just know so much and customer success, customer support, all know this person, right?
So that is hardly ever said or discussed, but it's a really important part of our jobs as product managers. Like what is the way to remove any roadblocks from customers experiencing and getting access to your solution. And the third is evolving, right? We keep talking about you should know your customer.
It's what is going on in this industry? What is going on in our customer's world that I need to be made aware of so that I can anticipate and build the product? So it's the product evolution aspect. Quite frankly, if you are at a startup, you are doing all three, right? If you're in a huge company, you're probably doing mostly at the first piece.
If you're an executive, you're probably doing all three. You are like, or working on the other. So it's, we need to step back and ask ourselves. While majority of the, the PMs may be working on the solutioning piece, that is not the only job the be like if you go to any company and figure out who's that best pm everybody talks about they're really doing all three of these or have some credibility across these three areas.
On the solutioning piece and the communication of the solutioning piece. AI has come and is going to do some really interesting things, so we're no longer working on a document of requirements. You're working on software, right? The, the space within which you are brainstorming, designing, et cetera, is no longer a document to be translated.
Actually, software you're looking at software and clicking around and that's really good. It takes away the, but I said that, and you read this, it just really takes the refinement process, the backlog refinement. It changes it.
Oji: Code becomes spec because code is basically language.
Ezinne: Language. Exactly. Exactly. You don't have to write.
Oji: not the production code, but at least the thing that you idea around. Sorry.
Ezinne: No, please. It's that you, before you had to take English language on a document and translate it into code. You don't really need to do that anymore. You could actually be working with it with code, and that becomes your core prototype and then we move on. So things have changed there no argument, but how the organization experiences that, how you influence the rest of the organization.
I remember one PM saying, oh darn it, our CRO and our CEO billed some code the other day. Now they wanna sell it and put it on the website and blah, blah blah. That's now a major problem. They buy coded over the weekend.
Oji: product,
Melissa Perri: Yeah.
Oji: and then the CO says let's sell it.
Ezinne: Let's tell it. So A, as the pm, your job is to figure, is this in conflict? Is this not in conflict?
Oji: You're like, do I have a job right now?
Melissa Perri: Yeah. And it's also like if the, if the CRO and the CEO are going around you and doing that, so what, what are you, what are your interactions with them? Like? Are you plugged into the conversation and
Ezinne: You?
Oji: because they think you're gonna slow 'em down. So they're
Ezinne: Yes,
Oji: right now you are. You are on the sidelines and you are alarmed,
Ezinne: yes.
Oji: and dev leads are like, holy
Ezinne: What the heck is going on?
Oji: for security risks. GDTR issues.
Ezinne: So in, in the past, right, the PM had the design resources, the engineering resources, well now we've got Chad, GPT, and lovable. We don't need you guys. Anybody can build code now. So it's, it's a wild, wild west. So I do not think that the job is eliminated. I do think it evolves. It is, how do you get all those people in the sales organization that are now actually vibe coding and building all sorts of prototypes that you are like, oh crap.
What the hell is going on? How do you curate that? How do you get them to the table? How do you help take that energy and use it towards good? That's part of the orchestration that we used to say PMs have to do. That is now part of the job. So it's just evolving.
Oji: How do you build what is the right thing?
Ezinne: to build.
Oji: Build it, get
Ezinne: Good.
Oji: to market in the best way that creates demand and love.
Ezinne: Yes
Oji: but the right
Ezinne: thing.
Oji: which ultimately in the end is what matters.
' cause it's not. The right solution. The right thing. It's like in the end, what you want is to shift the right thing, ship it the way that matters. That is the job. The part of divining the right thing is going to remain super important because doing it is still gonna be arcane, soft, sophistry and wizardry, right? mean that. It's gonna be customer listening. The middle will be lot. There's gonna be a lot of creativity. There's gonna transform and someone will write a new agile manifesto. The end will still be hard to do, and PMs will spend more time in those places because it'll uniquely differentiate them in the workplace.
Ezinne: Yep. Yeah.
Melissa Perri: That's a great way to look at it. And so if you're advising the PMs who are listening to this right now, what skills to work on? What would you say?
Oji: Of the five or six things that we hire for in our career for a good pm maybe like a fifth is related to the middle thing. the middle thing is building. The PRD, it's the running, the meetings. It's like herding the cats. It's like making sure all the inputs are balanced into a thing that is prioritized and shipped. And so what does that map to in the skillset? We call it basically execution, right? Shipping chops, if that makes sense. besides that is leadership. 'cause you have to gain the confidence of these people is communication and over communication. Right. It is not necessarily in that thing, although some of it is creativity, being able to work in white space, being able to perceive the synthesis of market problems and all issues.
We don't know what to do here. And coming up with something that actually works. It is the customer listening skills that help you do that creativity in the direction of the customer. Because you can have creativity eight 90 degrees away from the customer. 'cause you're like, I have a brilliant idea.
That's some type of creativity. But if it's not on the customer, it is a waste of money. And so those are the other skills. So what we tell PMs, you have the shipping skills, these are the skills that are gonna be more important because they correlates to finding the right thing and getting into market in the right way.
Those are the things. And also communication in a world where there's a lot of Hurley burly, right in the build, your ability to lead, your ability to communicate has to be even higher, right? You have to walk into a room and people are like, okay, what he said, no matter how young he is, makes so much sense.
The CEO is like, salute. We're gonna do it. That kind thing.
Ezinne: I wrote an article end of the year and I think it kind of encapsulates what it is that I tell people I mentor and coach. The first thing that needed to happen was PMs needed to wake up. I just had this sense that people were just going through the motions, just on autopilot. That's the word. Yes. And the second was, so there are about five things I said. Second was, be curious. Sometimes we get so into our product and knowing our product, but we forget the person using it and the problem we're trying to solve and we're so in where we're experts at the pro, the product itself, but not the problem, right?
And how the problem is evolving with now that our product is there, right? Um, so just that curiosity is really critical. And then being bold, right? Taking risk is critical. And then last but not least, and this is where I spend time, is speaking the language, and this is gonna sound really weird, but technology, customer, business, and AI now.
It is your job to figure out how to translate. I always say be a polyglot, right? Translate this and like speak it clearly as much as possible. That's what I really think people should focus. There's a lot of noise, et cetera. Just be alert, be curious, be bold, and then be ready to be that person that is bringing all the parties together and ensuring that there's clarity, because you can speak all these languages and bring those people to the table towards a very clear goal.
That's the, when I talking to somebody that I mentor, that's what I'm asking of them, so that they can stand out.
Melissa Perri: I think that is fantastic advice and it's kind of bringing me back to almost like my first day as a product manager. I remember my boss telling me like, your job is basically to communicate what the business and customer needs are back to tech and figure out how to be the bridge between. Now that sounds that's more important than ever.
Ezinne: Yeah.
Oji: In the last 10 years, we reduced products to more customer discovery, more clear PRDs, just like the middle and the edges of those are gonna become more important because we have competition in the middle.
Melissa Perri: I think it's going to be a wild ride for the next couple years.
Ezinne: Yeah, it will be. It will be. There's a lot, lots that's gonna change.
Oji: encourage people though, like, the thing is this, right? It was always what your boss said, it was always dual mission. Make customers happy, make us money, right? That's always been the core of it. I think we've gotten less lost in the process of how to do that.
Melissa Perri: big time.
Oji: Every digital business, every tech business still needs this. Because there's a lot of developers, but they don't have time to be as customer centric as we are and that we are mandated to do, and they're not asked to do that. And so what that means is one of our partners, Ted says, the rocket ship is accelerating to warp speed, but if you're point in the wrong direction, it goes away from the mission faster, right? You vibe code, let's not call vibe code because this sounds terrible, but you, 10 x developers in the wrong direction is terrible for returning capital. And so the rendering of what a PM does, a good PM does is still super
Ezinne: So critical. Yeah.
Melissa Perri: I think that's so
Ezinne: Yeah.
Melissa Perri: important for people to remember. Oji and Ezinne, it's been so good having you here. If people wanted to go read your book, where should they go?
Oji: You go to Amazon and search for Building rocket ships: a blueprint for high growth companies in the age of AI, and you will find it, uh, you should go to Shopify and search for the same thing, and you can get the Pro edition.
Melissa Perri: Oh.
Oji: and you will get like 60 plus tools you can share with your team immediately.
Ezinne: ProductMind.Co. So you can find us consulting, you can find us coaching, and you can find our thoughts in our book there. Okay. And Amazon, obviously you can buy it there.
Melissa Perri: Amazing. And we will put all of the links to where you can find them on our show notes at productthinkingpodcast.com. Thank you so much for listening to the Product Thinking Podcast. We'll be back next Wednesday with another amazing guest. And in the meantime, if you have any questions for me, go to dearmelissa.com and let me know what they are. We'll see you next time.
